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Dec 10, 2014
Interesting Psak: concern for Jews who don't prepare halachically for Har Habayit
Rav Dov Lior issued an interesting psak in the "ask the rabbi" section of Yeshiva.org.il .
The question asked was if the public debate around the issue of Har Haayit perhaps causes people to ascend Temple mount without proper halachic preparation, non-religious people who perhaps don't go to the mikva before ascending or maybe are not careful about only walking in the permitted areas - perhaps that justifies closing the entire Har Habayit to Jews (and Arabs)? if for every ten Jews that go up properly and are careful even just one is not and gets kareis, then perhaps it should be closed off completely.
This question has really been dealt with before, and I have heard the negative response, that ascending Har Habayit is prohibited for this very reason - even if you or I go up properly, other people might not. Rav Lior's answer is one I had not heard before in this context.
Rav Lior responded by saying that this is a question that deserves a question in response... and that is, if Jews do not ascend Har Habayit, would that cause the State to also close the Har to the Arabs as well? He leaves it hanging, but his question is really rhetorical - obviously the State will not close it for Arabs.
So, Rav Lior says, those who don't ask rabbonim, don't care, and those that care are mostly bnei torah. Closing Har Habayit from Jewish access is much worse than the concern of the people who will go up improperly. We have to safeguard the place and save it.
So, according to Rav Lior, Jews accessing Har Habayit properly is more important and necessary than being concerned about the people who go up without proper halachic preparation being obligated in kareis.
The question asked was if the public debate around the issue of Har Haayit perhaps causes people to ascend Temple mount without proper halachic preparation, non-religious people who perhaps don't go to the mikva before ascending or maybe are not careful about only walking in the permitted areas - perhaps that justifies closing the entire Har Habayit to Jews (and Arabs)? if for every ten Jews that go up properly and are careful even just one is not and gets kareis, then perhaps it should be closed off completely.
This question has really been dealt with before, and I have heard the negative response, that ascending Har Habayit is prohibited for this very reason - even if you or I go up properly, other people might not. Rav Lior's answer is one I had not heard before in this context.
Rav Lior responded by saying that this is a question that deserves a question in response... and that is, if Jews do not ascend Har Habayit, would that cause the State to also close the Har to the Arabs as well? He leaves it hanging, but his question is really rhetorical - obviously the State will not close it for Arabs.
So, Rav Lior says, those who don't ask rabbonim, don't care, and those that care are mostly bnei torah. Closing Har Habayit from Jewish access is much worse than the concern of the people who will go up improperly. We have to safeguard the place and save it.
So, according to Rav Lior, Jews accessing Har Habayit properly is more important and necessary than being concerned about the people who go up without proper halachic preparation being obligated in kareis.
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I don't get it... What is the issur al pi Torah for an non-Jew to go anywhere on Har haBayit ?
ReplyDeletea. non jews cannot go past the "cheil", so there is an issur torah
ReplyDeleteb. the issur torah wasnt specifically the issue, rather the concept of letting the non jews there and be in control of our makom kadosh. sort of a "shualim yelchu ba? type of issue
a. is there nowadays any kedusha attached to the mekom heil, or just to the kodesh hakodashim? Even if there is, I doubt this is an issue of hiyyuv karet... Which wouldn't make much sense for a new-Jew anyway.
ReplyDeletea'. since when is it a prerogative of the Israeli Rabbinate to enforce Jewish Law towards non-Jews? Does is forbid abortion for non-Jews?
b. this is something else entirely. If you go down that line, just say: mitsvat kibbush overrides issur karet AND we won't let the Arabs up there. But that's not what he says, is it?
1. I dont know if there is a kareis punishment for non jews that go past the cheil. there is an issur.
Delete2. he isnt saying kibush overrides kareis. if that were so, he'd say we jews could walk anywhere we want up there. he didnt say that. he did say that our going up properly is more important than worrying about the miority of people who will go up improperly and we shouldnt cancel oour going up properly out of concern for some who will go up improperly
Rafi,
ReplyDeleteI am sure I am making a mistake here, I am wondering if you could explain this to me. I read that one of the reason allowing going on the temple mount is because the people don't walk on the real Har HaBayis, they are just walk on the extension built by Herod. But if they are only walking on the extension built by Herod, then what is the point of walking there and not just staying by the Kotel? In other words they are not getting the spiritual benefits of being on the real Har Habayis anyway? Is the only benefit that it is closer than the Kosel to the Makom HaMikdash?
Thanks,
Avi
it is not true. there are defiitely some sections on har habayit that we go through that are not actually har habayit but the extension, but much of where Jews walk up there is actual har habayit. otherwise I'd agree with you
ReplyDeletethanks for the info
DeleteAvi
Just curious what Rav Lior and those who advocate going on har habayis know that Rav Eliyashiv, z'l and many others before and after him, who held it was assur to go there didn't know.
ReplyDeleteits called a difference of opinion. that is allowed, and is fairly common, in Judaism. it doesnt mean one knows more or less than the other. look throughout the history of halacha and you'll find one or two machlokot.. it does not mean one posek knew more than the other, but they weighed different factors differently or used different logical arguments to come to their conclusions.
Deletesame question could be asked about any machlokes in halacha
DeleteAvi
Awesome. Indeed, all the people so worried about fellow Jews and karet, are not normally worried about most other problems and challenges facing fellow Jews. I question how much intensity the Haredi rabbis have attacked the issue the human trafficking to Israel of 'ladies of the night' for instance, what about Jews negotiating and actually giving away parts of the Land of Israel?
ReplyDeleteThere frankly is no stira. The rabbis who permit people to visit the Temple Mount absolutely do not approve to go up to the Temple Mount which means the forbidden places as well as the safek places. So entering the gate of the current upper area and hugging the walls is really 'not going up to the Temple Mount'.
Given that, we do know that throughout the ages, daat Torah is laced with 'political' opinion, and I agree with your reply to Anon 6:05pm. There is no one 'daat Torah' and clearly the achronim in our generation seem to be interpreting halacha different on this issue than the rishonim which is also peculiar. Just in our generation, it happens all to often that rabbis might give psaks based on what politicians and security forces have told them - like we should not do anything that might 'incite the Arab street'.
I assume that some Poskim might relate to those who go onto Har HaBayit without preparing properly as Shogegim (sinning unwittingly), since they probably do not understand anything about these Issurei Karet.
ReplyDeleteThis could be another mitigating factor in the situation.
Bivrachah,
Catriel Lev, RBS-Alef